In a week when riots have spread from Tottenham across London and now other major UK cities, and the Prime Minister and Mayor of London have cut short their holidays to deal with the crisis, Question Time returns for a special edition. David Dimbleby chairs a panel of politicians and public figures as they take questions from the audience on what sparked the rioting, the police response and how to deal with the root causes of the unrest.

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With me in London tonight, the former Deputy Prime Minister, John:00:01.932:00:08.328
Prescott. The Conservative David Davis, former Shadow Home Secretary.:00:08.368:00:11.784
Liberal Democrat Brian Paddick, who stood for Mayor of London after:00:11.824:00:15.004
retiring from the Metropolitan Police. The Archbishop of York,:00:15.044:00:19.612
John Sentamu. The founder of the charity Kids Company, Camila:00:19.652:00:29.612
Batmanghelidjh. And the editor of Thank you. Before I go to the first:00:37.480:00:41.488
question, with no respected David Davis, you may be wondering why:00:41.528:00:46.396
there is no Cabinet minister on this important occasion. We did ask:00:46.436:00:49.240
for a Cabinet minister to join the panel tonight and not one of them:00:49.280:00:54.832
would agree to come. Just in case you are curious. They were all in:00:54.872:00:58.608
the House of Commons today. All of them in the debate. Just so that:00:58.648:01:02.112
you know, because it is a surprise they are not here. Our first:01:02.152:01:07.800
question from William Brewster. a resident of Clapham Junction, I:01:07.840:01:10.864
felt very exposed as I waited for the police to arrive on Monday:01:10.904:01:14.504
night. How are we going to make sure the police are not outflanked:01:14.544:01:18.908
again as we return to normal policing levels. No longer with:01:18.948:01:24.316
16,000 police on the streets of London. David Davis. One of the big:01:24.356:01:28.144
concerns was not just how late they arrived but even when the police:01:28.184:01:32.252
got to the site of the looting and the rioting there was what appeared:01:32.292:01:38.440
to be, anyway, and order to stand back, to allow the violence and the:01:38.480:01:42.600
crime to go on. One of the lessons that David Cameron made clear in:01:42.640:01:45.676
the House today, one of the lessons that has been learned from this is:01:45.716:01:51.004
that the way you police a mass criminal activity, which is what:01:51.044:01:56.268
this has been, is very different from the way you police and:01:56.308:02:00.284
ordinary demonstration. This is completely different. The police:02:00.324:02:03.424
who operate under so-called public- order policing rules, which are:02:03.464:02:06.908
designed not to deal with this. In future, I hope we will see that:02:06.948:02:10.144
when the police get there they will intervene before, all whilst the:02:10.184:02:13.688
crime is taking place and not wait until afterwards, leaving us to:02:13.728:02:19.096
clear up the mess. Do you agree with David Cameron, that the police:02:19.136:02:22.752
chiefs have actually said they made a mistake here? I am sure that is:02:22.792:02:26.452
right. They were operating under a set of rules which were really:02:26.492:02:28.908
designed for demonstrations which might go wrong but are generally:02:28.948:02:33.832
peaceful. This was not that at all. This was a mass Quim of outbreak.:02:33.872:02:41.812
Very different. Brian Paddick, how come this would happen. The first:02:41.852:02:44.956
thing to say is that I think that if the disturbances in Tottenham on:02:44.996:02:48.064
Saturday night were handled properly, if they had sufficient:02:48.104:02:51.328
officers there - and it should not have been a surprise because when I:02:51.368:02:54.704
was Police commander in Brixton we had somebody shot by the police, a:02:54.744:02:58.784
peaceful demonstration turned into a riot - there was no excuse for:02:58.824:03:02.160
not having sufficient officers on duty in Tottenham on Saturday night.:03:02.200:03:06.192
If we had had that, and if the officers had acted, rather than:03:06.232:03:10.096
standing back - we saw the pictures on the television of officers:03:10.136:03:14.080
standing back and allowing people to go looting - then I do not think:03:14.120:03:21.360
we would have a copycat violence in Clapham Junction or anywhere else.:03:21.400:03:24.220
As far as the specific question, these crowds were organising:03:24.260:03:28.880
themselves using social network, using Twitter, Facebook, BlackBerry:03:28.920:03:33.240
Messenger. Why weren't the police on Twitter, Facebook and BlackBerry:03:33.280:03:40.112
Messenger, getting one step ahead of the crowds? You are very:03:40.152:03:43.328
critical of your former colleagues. Where do you think it has gone:03:43.368:03:49.016
wrong with the Met? They have lost a lot of experience at the top of:03:49.056:03:52.720
the organisation, in terms of experience of dealing with public:03:52.760:03:56.800
order situations. This is the first thing. I was talking to officers:03:56.840:04:01.016
about this this afternoon, and they are very concerned, after the G20:04:01.056:04:04.220
and criticism of the police in those demonstrations, that if they:04:04.260:04:07.784
do police robustly, which I think is what the majority of the public:04:07.824:04:12.564
want, they fear they will not be supported by their bosses, should:04:12.604:04:18.452
there be a complaint. Therefore, not only are the senior police:04:18.492:04:22.296
officers telling police officers to watch, we will get them afterwards:04:22.336:04:25.160
with closed circuit television, sending the wrong signals to the:04:25.200:04:29.248
public and the rioters, but officers are afraid of acting:04:29.288:04:32.596
robustly because they think there will be complaints and they will:04:32.636:04:37.268
not be supported by their bosses. number of people wanting to come in.:04:37.308:04:41.440
I dispute that, actually, because there was a news bulletin on Monday:04:41.480:04:46.936
night. My friend's flat in Clapham was burnt out completely. If there:04:46.976:04:50.092
were four officers at the scene watching with him while people help:04:50.132:04:53.908
themselves to shops around, stood there doing nothing. Surely they:04:53.948:04:57.172
would be able to employ an amount of reasonable force in order to:04:57.212:05:02.564
prevent the destruction that continued for two hours before they:05:02.604:05:09.472
intervened. A thing we agree with each other. On the point that was:05:09.512:05:13.452
made about using reasonable force, I think the public, the media and:05:13.492:05:18.500
the politicians, we all send mixed messages to the police. In April:05:18.540:05:21.144
2009 we had the G20 protests and police were accused of being heavy-:05:21.184:05:26.608
handed and there is now an opera -- an officer on a manslaughter charge.:05:26.648:05:34.344
To pick up on the point that Brian Paddick made, if Sunday night had:05:34.384:05:37.500
been policed properly, we would be sitting here saying the police were:05:37.540:05:40.860
heavy-handed and did not act proportionally. They cannot win:05:40.900:05:47.032
either way. Do you agree? I think there are difficulties but let's:05:47.072:05:53.000
recognise there have been 29 civil disturbances since 19 some T5. This:05:53.040:05:58.160
is of a different magnitude altogether. -- since 1975. The:05:58.200:06:01.576
scale of it, the use of social Messaging, all of that as played a:06:01.616:06:05.296
part in making this different. What I find it difficult to understand:06:05.336:06:08.316
is why the police, that have these powers, did not exercise them in:06:08.356:06:14.596
the way they could have done. 1, numbers, no doubt about it. 16,000:06:14.636:06:18.888
showed that people stayed off the street. You cannot sustain that, so:06:18.928:06:21.328
the Public Order Act would allow you to designate special powers to:06:21.368:06:25.596
deal with them. I believe politicians, whatever they do to:06:25.636:06:30.624
get all the back, must recognise, designate a special area, which:06:30.664:06:33.720
requires bigger than the police to talk together about that, put a:06:33.760:06:36.984
proper police numbers in to deal with it. Thirdly, let's deal with:06:37.024:06:41.172
these people who covered their faces with scarves in order to:06:41.212:06:44.248
commit criminal acts. Make sure that if they are involved in that:06:44.288:06:47.484
designated place, they are acting in a criminal way and they must:06:47.524:06:57.360
face the consequences for that. That is obviously an issue. But I:06:57.400:07:00.880
think that when we talk about the police, I think it is important to:07:00.920:07:04.956
remember that the police are actually part of our society and:07:04.996:07:10.376
individuals with families themselves who also have - it's the:07:10.416:07:14.564
job. It could be a vocation, but it is a job and it is important to:07:14.604:07:18.112
remember that they do not get backing. This gentleman's point:07:18.152:07:23.048
about mixed messages. No support, very little support, mixed support:07:23.088:07:27.936
when things go wrong. If they were heavy-handed, they would have been:07:27.976:07:32.828
filmed and the rest of it. And then they are on a manslaughter charge:07:32.868:07:36.752
and they do not get the backing from senior officers, all from the:07:36.792:07:41.828
public that they deserve. Most of the time. Brian Paddick's point was:07:41.868:07:45.888
that these were orders to behave as they did, not an individual:07:45.928:07:51.372
policeman deciding how to react. Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of:07:51.412:07:54.956
Constabulary, in his review of public order policing, said exactly:07:54.996:07:57.876
what this gentleman said, which was that there is no guidance to:07:57.916:08:02.048
officers as to what reasonable forces, no consistency across the:08:02.088:08:08.360
country about reasonable force, and officers need that protection.:08:08.400:08:14.856
feel that this has been an evolution of responses to:08:14.896:08:18.140
demonstrations in the past. You started to see it towards the end:08:18.180:08:21.856
of the student riots. Instead of clustering in one area, the:08:21.896:08:24.856
students went into small gangs, people wanting to cause:08:24.896:08:29.064
disturbances went into small gangs, because they knew the police would:08:29.104:08:35.780
kettle them, for instance. Second, I do not feel additional violence:08:35.820:08:39.452
from the police would solve the problem, because that is pretty:08:39.492:08:44.608
much what caused it in the first place, isn't it? What do you call:08:44.648:08:49.720
additional violence? I am talking about people calling for people to:08:49.760:08:55.360
be shot, using rubber bullets, for instance. The mistake that the:08:55.400:08:58.344
police made was to stand and observed on Monday night because:08:58.384:09:02.372
that is what they have always done. But none of us ever expected these:09:02.412:09:08.360
riots happening in diverse places in London. Tottenham, arguably, was:09:08.400:09:10.828
predictable because there were bad moves their head. But nobody would:09:10.868:09:17.452
have thought Croydon, Woolwich. I think Brian is being a bit mean on:09:17.492:09:20.808
his former colleagues. They do monitor Twitter and BlackBerry. But:09:20.848:09:24.360
do you know how many people in London use them? There is no way:09:24.400:09:30.452
the police can sit and work out. If somebody says, I predict a riot,:09:30.492:09:34.780
they may be talking about a pop song. You cannot do that, unless:09:34.820:09:39.248
you set up a fascist state. We could be sitting here saying, the:09:39.288:09:42.188
police were brittle and look at all of the people they have beaten up.:09:42.228:09:45.484
I think it is amazing that there have been no instances of police:09:45.524:09:49.904
brutality. I would rather live in a city that erred on that side,:09:49.944:09:56.496
rather than going in with shields and batons. This issue of social:09:56.536:10:00.048
networking is extremely important. My children in infield picked up:10:00.088:10:05.688
that there was going to be a riot in Enfield at 1pm. That is when:10:05.728:10:10.312
they picked up a message. It happened at 4pm. They gave me the:10:10.352:10:18.124
time. That is three hours. Why weren't the police there? The man:10:18.164:10:22.360
in the red tie. If we think that the police were not heavy-handed:10:22.400:10:25.544
enough, what does the panel think they should be doing differently,:10:25.584:10:28.800
and what other techniques should they be using on the streets of:10:28.840:10:34.704
London? John Sentamu. I think the first responsibility of any:10:34.744:10:38.720
government is to keep the peace, above everything else. So we have:10:38.760:10:42.188
to ask the question, is the Government keeping the peace:10:42.228:10:47.392
through the police? Because don't just simply blame the police.:10:47.432:10:52.032
Because if the police can't actually do it, vigilante groups:10:52.072:10:59.168
grow up. Nature always fills a power vacuum. Are you in favour of:10:59.208:11:04.280
vigilante groups? No. Do you disapprove of people standing in:11:04.320:11:08.608
front of their temple, armed in case it was attacked? Be careful if:11:08.648:11:12.704
you want to go that way. If you have a liberal democracy, where:11:12.744:11:15.560
people are accountable through Parliament and the police are:11:15.600:11:18.484
accountable as well, it will be a matter of time before people begin:11:18.524:11:22.312
to say, and I heard on one particular social network where:11:22.352:11:26.328
people were saying, I think we had better go and get it done because:11:26.368:11:29.952
we need to protect ourselves. Please, let us not go down that:11:29.992:11:35.952
road. -- go and get a gun. But if you know there is a mob coming up:11:35.992:11:38.596
the road, are you right or wrong to get together with colleagues and:11:38.636:11:44.748
stand outside and say, if you come, I will hit you. I would say to the:11:44.788:11:48.344
gross surfacing that difficulty, where are the police? Where are the:11:48.384:11:55.372
police. They have a responsibility to keep the peace. And the:11:55.412:11:58.328
Government have a responsibility. Therefore, you have to ask yourself,:11:58.368:12:03.560
do we have sufficient numbers of police? Do we really want to go:12:03.600:12:12.044
down a road which says, get in and use as much force? If there is a:12:12.084:12:16.484
lot of violence already and we respond with more violence, you:12:16.524:12:26.484
create a darkness on a night when If we are talking about more force:12:26.916:12:32.236
being used, what force is that? If people are waiting for the:12:32.276:12:35.264
criminals to be identified on closed circuit television, then:12:35.304:12:40.136
there have to go in and arrest the looters in the act of committing it.:12:40.176:12:44.060
That sends the signal that the police are doing something direct,:12:44.100:12:46.856
and it sends the signal to the rioters that they cannot get away:12:46.896:12:54.700
with it. Camella, you live in Peckham. I work in Peckham. Where:12:54.740:13:03.808
do you live? In West Hampstead, if you must know. Where there were no:13:03.848:13:09.608
riots. What do you think about the issue of how the police reacted?:13:09.648:13:13.544
think the police have an incredibly difficult job, in very challenging:13:13.584:13:19.544
areas. Potentially if they had got in very heavy handed in some of:13:19.584:13:24.264
those neighbourhoods, it could potentially have led to use of:13:24.304:13:29.232
firearms by people in those areas. What we have got to understand is,:13:29.272:13:34.124
as you rightly say, the police are human beings. They were also taken:13:34.164:13:39.640
by shock. They had to ascertain how to ascertain the situation.:13:39.680:13:45.344
Potentially, I think this situation may have calmed down. Unfortunately:13:45.384:13:48.088
because David Cameron was suggesting that rubber bullets and:13:48.128:13:58.088
water cannons would be used, and even though I regret the fact that:13:58.164:14:04.248
warlike behaviour is responded to with warlike language, I think the:14:04.288:14:08.968
police feel they needed back up. you thought the first reaction of:14:09.008:14:12.888
the police on Saturday, Sunday and Monday, was the right reaction, to:14:12.928:14:18.232
stand back and watch rather than making arrests? I think we can:14:18.272:14:23.060
never make judgments sitting behind the desk. There were lots of people:14:23.100:14:28.108
in very heated situations on those streets, both victims, perpetrators:14:28.148:14:33.496
and the police. I think we have to be very cautious about blaming:14:33.536:14:37.372
people in these conditions. Let's hear more from the audience.:14:37.412:14:42.044
disagree. I expect my police to stop people in the act of a crime.:14:42.084:14:51.904
And what was your reaction to the way that they responded? Blind:14:51.944:14:57.592
panic. I could not believe the pictures that I saw on Saturday:14:57.632:15:01.608
night of non- intervention and CCTV policing going on. That is not the:15:01.648:15:08.576
right way to deal with a mob like that. Brian has touched on the:15:08.616:15:12.464
point, but this is very important to understand. People have compared:15:12.504:15:16.044
this to the G20. That was broadly speaking a peaceful demonstration.:15:16.084:15:19.652
The man That died was not committing an act of violence or a:15:19.692:15:24.528
crime. It is very dangerous to use the same rules for that as you use:15:24.568:15:30.528
for this. And what we need to do is to give our police the discretion:15:30.568:15:35.000
on the ground to act when a crime is being committed, and to act:15:35.040:15:40.932
appropriately. If that means force, then that means force. The real:15:40.972:15:45.108
problem, as you know, the police claim the right to have the powers:15:45.148:15:50.012
to control, operation rights. Governments of the poster not:15:50.052:15:54.280
interfere. In this situation, a remarkable situation, one which has:15:54.320:15:58.720
to be dealt with in a different way, COBRA was pulled together, and then:15:58.760:16:03.168
all the arguments about water cannon came up, because of the:16:03.208:16:06.796
political discussion between Government and the police. We need:16:06.836:16:11.168
to know exactly what should happen in these exceptional circumstances,:16:11.208:16:14.824
how the police should act. If you leave it to the Chief Constable of:16:14.864:16:18.464
the moment, or even a commissioner, you get different solutions at:16:18.504:16:22.360
different times, which causes confusion and encourages people to:16:22.400:16:26.056
do the looting because the police don't know how to act in that:16:26.096:16:30.652
situation. Are you saying that the commissioner or the deputy:16:30.692:16:33.920
commissioner of the Net police was not in a position legally to deploy:16:33.960:16:39.184
the police as he wanted on Saturday and Monday, that he had to wait for:16:39.224:16:43.008
the Prime Minister? They have the powers under the Public Order Act,:16:43.048:16:46.404
but to use them they are required to discuss the Government. They did:16:46.444:16:50.544
not discuss any of that and Government was not there any way.:16:50.584:16:54.904
So they called COBRA. COBRA was only called when the Prime Minister:16:54.944:16:58.640
and Home Secretary came back from their holidays. The place where:16:58.680:17:03.076
this is discussed is broadly among senior police officers and they:17:03.116:17:07.952
made the mistake, bluntly. They applied rules for a demonstration:17:07.992:17:11.684
to a circumstance which was about crime. That is why it was discussed.:17:11.724:17:15.728
What they have all now recognised, it has come up in the house today,:17:15.768:17:19.920
they got that wrong and they need different rules of engagement for:17:19.960:17:23.904
their police officers on the ground. Until the Prime Minister came back:17:23.944:17:30.000
from holiday, the police could not have acted. Do you agree with John?:17:30.040:17:33.640
The idea that the police commissioner should call a room:17:33.680:17:37.156
full of politicians and ask them what to do, that would make the:17:37.196:17:42.856
situation worse. That is called COBRA and it happens constantly.:17:42.896:17:51.416
That fills me with dread, asking you what to do now. Sorry! Let's:17:51.456:17:55.168
assume it is your mate David Cameron. They can have the:17:55.208:17:58.168
discussion, politicians and Government. Where they do not have:17:58.208:18:02.416
it, they have the mess that we have had over the last few days.:18:02.456:18:08.264
police got it right in the end. You put more police on the streets.:18:08.304:18:11.856
police had sufficient powers on Saturday, Sunday and Monday. They:18:11.896:18:20.620
have the authority of to use baton rounds and Robert -- rubber bullets:18:20.660:18:25.184
if they wanted to. When it came to Manchester, the police had learned:18:25.224:18:29.464
what went wrong, so they intervene straight away. Or it was a:18:29.504:18:35.076
different police commander. The man over there? I think the problem was:18:35.116:18:39.572
that they did not have any rubber bullets. They have four policeman:18:39.612:18:45.280
in Clapham Junction and that was it. If you of four policeman with 250:18:45.320:18:51.056
rioters, you cannot do anything about that. On your own, to hundred:18:51.096:18:56.592
and 50 rioters. In your view why were there only four? God only:18:56.632:19:03.776
knows. There were riots in South London anyway, but... The woman in:19:03.816:19:07.760
red? I put it to you that the decision was taken deliberately to:19:07.800:19:13.668
have lax policing in order to after the events that happened push more:19:13.708:19:17.464
rules for were it to stop protests, to stop the working class having a:19:17.504:19:25.640
voice, and to stop... -- forward. Initial point. I drove round many:19:25.680:19:32.152
areas of South London where I live and there were no police. I cannot:19:32.192:19:35.512
believe that in five different large areas there were no police.:19:35.552:19:38.776
Eyesore crimes being committed and I cannot believe there were none.:19:38.816:19:47.480
It was deliberate. -- five saw crimes. Do you think it was:19:47.520:19:50.932
inevitable that the police would be limited in their ability to handle:19:50.972:19:55.292
the situation effectively considering a mistrust of the:19:55.332:19:58.808
police that pervades through so many of the communities affected by:19:58.848:20:06.560
the violence? I think that there are challenges in relationships:20:06.600:20:11.008
between the police and these communities. Funnily enough, I:20:11.048:20:16.588
don't think they stem necessarily from the police. I think that the:20:16.628:20:22.932
police end up with the bulk of our social troubles and they become an:20:22.972:20:28.716
agency that in effect has to suppress people's rage and protest:20:28.756:20:32.572
and that is what we are doing to our police. We are asking them to:20:32.612:20:35.696
do everything without really giving them the equipment to do it:20:35.736:20:40.040
sensibly. What is very interesting for me throughout this is that:20:40.080:20:45.588
actually the areas that did not get raided, like Oxford Street, like:20:45.628:20:49.684
Knightsbridge, it is well worth thinking what happened that those:20:49.724:20:54.852
areas did not really get attacked, and... Why do you think they did:20:54.892:21:00.448
not? I think the police caught on to what was happening and prevented:21:00.488:21:07.932
attacks on those areas by really pulling the crowd in. There is some:21:07.972:21:13.824
discussion among children at street level that suggests that the really:21:13.864:21:18.932
wealthy areas were well protected and the areas that we economically:21:18.972:21:28.932
more vulnerable were less protected. I will take one more point. Given:21:29.320:21:32.200
the speed with which all of the gangs seemed to be organised,:21:32.240:21:36.680
because of the use of social media, surely the police had an impossible:21:36.720:21:40.200
task? There cannot organise themselves quickly enough to follow:21:40.240:21:45.280
the gangs. What do you say to communities that did on themselves,:21:45.320:21:50.024
prevent trouble, when there is no adequate police response? I would:21:50.064:21:55.744
like to come back on this actually. The kids at street level did say:21:55.784:22:01.368
that the gangs that would normally be fighting each other United in:22:01.408:22:06.132
these circumstances to fight what they perceived to be the wrongs of:22:06.172:22:10.696
Government and the police. Does that make it better? I am just:22:10.736:22:16.432
stating what happened. I am not saying it is a good thing. This is:22:16.472:22:20.544
exactly the kind of liberal rubbish that has put this country in a:22:20.584:22:28.308
state we are in today. And to Lord Prescott, with all due:22:28.348:22:34.024
respect, the Labour Government over the last 13 years created this:22:34.064:22:37.492
culture of impunity that has led to the senseless act that we have seen:22:37.532:22:42.588
on the streets of our country this week. How dare you sit there and:22:42.628:22:47.664
defend your record? Because unemployment reduced by 2 million.:22:47.704:22:53.288
You always quote that. You always have facts and figures but people:22:53.328:22:57.336
of the country know the truth. Interesting that riots happened:22:57.376:23:01.384
under the Conservatives. They happened under a Conservative:23:01.424:23:07.884
Government. Labour are being paid off to be quiet. Who are being paid:23:07.924:23:13.728
off? Since they have come to power, there have been more riot because:23:13.768:23:19.132
cuts are being made, welfare payments are not as generous. And:23:19.172:23:26.320
people... People what? I think Labour tried to create this state:23:26.360:23:31.976
for the voters. We need to move through these topics because there:23:32.016:23:36.900
are several to raise. Just before we do, this programme is also being:23:36.940:23:41.132
broadcast on Radio 5 Live and on BBC local radio in London, the West:23:41.172:23:45.824
Midlands and Manchester, and we welcome all of those listeners. The:23:45.864:23:48.448
debate will carry on after this programme is over in all of those:23:48.488:23:55.616
places. In the meantime, you can join the discussion on Twitter. You:23:55.656:24:01.288
can send us text messages. And we will tell you what other people are:24:01.328:24:05.948
saying. John Prescott has his own tweeting going on here. You can:24:05.988:24:10.400
also press the red button to see what other people are saying.:24:10.440:24:18.976
you know that you are called dimple pot? I do! We are having a serious:24:19.016:24:23.648
discussion but I do know that is my name. I know there is a dimple:24:23.688:24:30.716
dance and I know that I can do it, too! This is neither the time nor:24:30.756:24:37.120
the place. The question from Emily, please. What do you think about the:24:37.160:24:41.964
petition demanding that those convicted in the riots lose their:24:42.004:24:46.168
benefits? This petition has been set up by the Government, whereby:24:46.208:24:49.852
you can petition Government and get hurt if over 100,000 people signed:24:49.892:24:56.088
it. This petition has now reached that. It is suggesting that people:24:56.128:24:59.696
convicted in the riot lose any welfare benefits that they receive.:24:59.736:25:03.772
Are you in favour of that? I know the Government is looking seriously:25:03.812:25:09.104
at this. At the moment, if you go to prison, you do not get your:25:09.144:25:11.852
benefits but that is because the Government is looking after you in:25:11.892:25:19.680
prison. OK, not very good food but to get the idea. If you get a non-:25:19.720:25:23.356
custodial sentence, you still get benefit. They are thinking about:25:23.396:25:28.336
putting them. Benefits could be used as part of the penal system:25:28.376:25:31.560
here. That might be a good or bad idea but I think now was not the:25:31.600:25:35.356
right time to make the decisions, right in the heat of it. We are:25:35.396:25:38.948
getting all kinds of suggestions and the worst possible thing would:25:38.988:25:46.540
be to come out with a Tony Blair style of the five things to do. We:25:46.580:25:50.432
should have the discussion, but when but tempers have calmed down.:25:50.472:26:00.432
OK, 100,000 signatures. Anyone in I think it is completely right. If:26:01.704:26:05.008
you have broken the law in the way that these people have done and:26:05.048:26:08.040
destroyed their community, why should they be receiving tax money:26:08.080:26:14.200
to go about their lives in the way they want to? It is disgusting.:26:14.240:26:18.368
the second row. Do you not think if you take away benefits and put:26:18.408:26:21.244
these people in prison you will make it even harder for them to:26:21.284:26:24.896
contribute to society when they come out? I am just asking the:26:24.936:26:31.944
question. They should have thought about that. Isn't it going to:26:31.984:26:36.288
create a vicious cycle? No, they should take responsibility for:26:36.328:26:41.448
their actions. I am asking if it will alienate them further from:26:41.488:26:48.320
society. They should have thought about it. What do you think? They:26:48.360:26:51.336
should take away their benefits and confiscate their private property:26:51.376:26:58.556
as well, in order to pay for the damage that has been caused and:26:58.596:27:01.588
compensate the victims, which include My cousin whose flat was:27:01.628:27:05.540
burnt down in Clapham on Monday night. Why should the taxpayer pay:27:05.580:27:12.696
out even more for these riots? David Davis, his petition is there:27:12.736:27:15.464
and there was talk in the House of Commons about removing people from:27:15.504:27:19.884
social housing, council housing, if they offended. Do either of those:27:19.924:27:25.088
ideas seem practical to you? I have slightly more sympathy for the:27:25.128:27:30.432
social housing aspect because that is a privilege. You have a 17-year-:27:30.472:27:35.276
old who was arrested... With a -- with respect, let me finish because:27:35.316:27:38.884
this is a difficult area. Fraser Nelson was right that decisions:27:38.924:27:42.352
made on this in the heat of the moment normally generate bad law:27:42.392:27:46.164
and we live to regret it years later. For example, if you take:27:46.204:27:49.616
away benefits and housing, you end up with a social case not just of:27:49.656:27:54.244
the individual but maybe their children. You cannot make sweeping:27:54.284:27:58.256
judgments. These judgments should be made by people who have all the:27:58.296:28:03.744
facts at hand, normally the court. That is where I like to see:28:03.784:28:07.240
judgments made on people's misbehaviour, not in Parliament and:28:07.280:28:12.052
not, with the best will in the world, on your programme, David.:28:12.092:28:17.976
And what about the e-petition, organised by Downing Street, with a:28:18.016:28:23.368
Cabinet that if they reach 100,000 they will go before Government.:28:23.408:28:26.536
That can be debated and that is fine. Many things will be debated:28:26.576:28:29.288
which will be uncomfortable for Parliament in coming years, which:28:29.328:28:32.728
people want to debate. At the end of that, hopefully parliament will:28:32.768:28:35.928
deliver laws which will be interpreted by the courts. We will:28:35.968:28:40.164
not have one law for a crime committed on this circumstance and:28:40.204:28:43.848
another law for exactly the same crime committed a year later:28:43.888:28:48.840
perhaps not in the glare of the public eye. John Prescott, what do:28:48.880:28:52.488
you think of this sort of punishment, the gentleman was:28:52.528:28:56.992
saying, for those found guilty? think that is happening on the:28:57.032:29:01.240
social network now. I got 30,000 against the bankers bonus. They are:29:01.280:29:05.648
deciding to participate in the debate. If you get 100,000 for a:29:05.688:29:08.840
petition, I am not against Parliament debating it. Why:29:08.880:29:12.400
shouldn't they? But I think what might happen is that the facts:29:12.440:29:14.636
might come out about the circumstances of what you were:29:14.676:29:18.304
dealing with. We found with hanging and abortion, there was lots of:29:18.344:29:21.616
emotion and feeling but when Parliament had to make a decision:29:21.656:29:24.692
against a background of those problems it did not arrive at the:29:24.732:29:28.584
same conclusion. I am happy to see that happen. But I think we have:29:28.624:29:32.992
only been told today that something like 50% of those before the courts:29:33.032:29:37.820
in London are under 18. Do you mean the 18-year-old, or do the whole:29:37.860:29:43.008
family get thrown out and become homeless? Do you change the law to:29:43.048:29:46.944
deal with homelessness? It is not just a simple solution to a problem.:29:46.984:29:56.944
Parliament has to make those kinds of decisions. I want to comment on:29:57.360:30:00.804
David Davis when he said about council accommodation being a:30:00.844:30:06.352
privilege. Have you lived on a council estate? I was brought up on:30:06.392:30:10.760
one. Believe me, it is no privilege. A lot of these people don't have:30:10.800:30:15.944
nothing. If you take away their accommodation, what happens then?:30:15.984:30:19.728
That is why I said it is a decision for the court with full information.:30:19.768:30:23.176
How many family are there, how many dependants, what was the:30:23.216:30:27.916
circumstance and the nature of the crime, all of the crimes committed?:30:27.956:30:32.896
Those are decisions that have to be taken properly, not in this way.:30:32.936:30:36.692
you evict those people, what happens to the family who are:30:36.732:30:43.976
innocent? I agree, which is why I say it is a decision forecourt.:30:44.016:30:46.992
First of all, the most informed people to make these decisions as:30:47.032:30:50.928
to what the appropriate punishment should be are the courts. They get:30:50.968:30:54.100
social reports and so forth. If the court decides somebody on benefits:30:54.140:30:58.444
should be fined, they get time to pay, and it effectively takes away:30:58.484:31:02.992
their benefits, as some people are suggesting. The other thing that:31:03.032:31:06.148
already exists with some social landlords are things called:31:06.188:31:09.772
acceptable behaviour contracts, where when they take over social:31:09.812:31:12.740
housing families, particularly those who have children with a:31:12.780:31:16.128
record of misbehaving, signed something to say they will keep:31:16.168:31:19.712
their children under control and behave themselves. That is a:31:19.752:31:24.584
condition of tenancy. I see no objection to that. But to take away:31:24.624:31:27.740
somebody's home, where it has not been agreed in the first place,:31:27.780:31:30.944
just to blanket takeaway benefits because a crime is committed, I:31:30.984:31:40.120
think that is going too far and it is too simplistic. In response to:31:40.160:31:43.992
Lord Prescott saying that 50% of those convicted are under 18, why:31:44.032:31:48.740
can't we offer them vocational apprenticeships to rebuild the:31:48.780:31:51.928
communities that are really damaged that they have destroyed:31:51.968:31:55.724
themselves? Instead of giving them a sentence, give them community:31:55.764:31:58.992
service where they can go and learn how they can actually help in the:31:59.032:32:04.288
future and give them a job? That is one of the things we have to:32:04.328:32:07.632
consider in dealing with the kind of problems in society. Give them a:32:07.672:32:11.476
chance and an opportunity. That is what many of them are calling for.:32:11.516:32:14.040
They are acting this way because they don't think they have any:32:14.080:32:24.040
opportunities. The man on the far right over there. If these people:32:24.080:32:27.804
on benefits, committing these acts, which we don't know, if you take:32:27.844:32:31.332
away what meagre sums they are run, they will have no money and will be:32:31.372:32:34.600
more likely to steal more because they will not have any money to:32:34.640:32:40.208
live on. Let me move on to the people who were engaged in the mobs:32:40.248:32:46.128
that were rioting, or whatever you like to call it, with a specific:32:46.168:32:53.008
riot, or looting. Matt Sheffield has a question. How can we engage:32:53.048:32:57.428
with rioters when they show no respect for society and appear to:32:57.468:33:06.428
lack the intelligence and understanding to be a part of it?:33:06.468:33:14.768
John Sentamu. Sadly, we have created an individualistic society:33:14.808:33:18.100
with a weakened family and community structures, where the:33:18.140:33:23.364
interests of me, myself have become prominent. From my point of view,:33:23.404:33:27.692
in many ways we have made a gob of self and self interest. The:33:27.732:33:32.836
difficulty is that our education system, as we have got it, what do:33:32.876:33:36.024
you do when all that you have been doing his driving towards higher:33:36.064:33:40.148
and higher academic achievement? Some of these people, quite frankly,:33:40.188:33:44.128
the system has not delivered for them. You have been requiring them:33:44.168:33:47.928
to do the same thing. I have a friend of mine who says, if you:33:47.968:33:51.128
want to make sure that your pig grows fast and quickly and you want:33:51.168:33:56.788
to sell it, the best ways to feed it and not to constantly way it. We:33:56.828:34:00.724
have had these attainment targets every time and some of our people:34:00.764:34:05.504
just cannot make it. It is time to recognise that within society some:34:05.544:34:08.692
people are going to be better off on apprenticeships, the kind of:34:08.732:34:12.740
thing you are suggesting, better off in other areas. The education:34:12.780:34:17.816
system, friends, needs to be looked at very carefully. And remember,:34:17.856:34:21.648
quite a number of these have been excluded from schools. I am not:34:21.688:34:26.708
making an excuse for anybody who committed a criminal act. The other:34:26.748:34:30.256
thing is that if you go into a house and you find that water is:34:30.296:34:35.504
leaking down the stairs, it is no good getting a mob to mop up the:34:35.544:34:42.320
water. It is better to find where the taxes, and to turn it off. --:34:42.360:34:51.612
where the tap is. Isn't it fair to say, answering the question there:34:51.652:34:56.520
and what the panellists are saying with regards to respect, over the:34:56.560:35:00.960
last few years we have seen a number of major court cases, MPs':35:01.000:35:04.364
expenses and the phone tapping, with regard to the rich and:35:04.404:35:08.048
powerful who are somewhat immune from being prosecuted in any way,:35:08.088:35:12.208
shape off-form? These people have nobody to look up to. They are:35:12.248:35:15.928
supposed to look up to politicians and police, and all they do is to:35:15.968:35:19.680
see them as the enemy, the people that have, when they are the have-:35:19.720:35:25.972
nots. They feel as though they have been left out. Fraser Nelson, do:35:26.012:35:30.004
you agree? I am not sure how many of us look up to politicians,:35:30.044:35:34.240
lovelies -- lovely though some of them are. But you are right about:35:34.280:35:37.240
the absence of role models. We are talking about people who have been:35:37.280:35:42.068
given, to a large extent, a bad education, short changed by the:35:42.108:35:46.364
schools. We have this ongoing scandal of sink schools in the:35:46.404:35:49.208
country, particularly in the poor parts of London, where they churn:35:49.248:35:53.128
out people who can barely read and write at the age of 16. How are:35:53.168:35:56.972
they expected to get a job and provide for themselves like that?:35:57.012:36:02.972
Then they need to find a job and an employer. And right now, a lot of:36:03.012:36:06.960
them are better off on benefits than they would be working. You get:36:07.000:36:12.380
taxed on your work. We paved a road for them which leads to a welfare:36:12.420:36:16.960
ghetto. Are you saying we have created the circumstances for:36:17.000:36:24.408
looting mobs to go round the cities of London, the Midlands and so:36:24.448:36:28.252
forth by the way that society has been constructed? Absolutely not.:36:28.292:36:31.944
There are lots of very poor people in this country and hardly any of:36:31.984:36:35.004
them would even think about that kind of behaviour. It is an insult:36:35.044:36:38.348
to those who are struggling to put food on the table, struggling to:36:38.388:36:43.440
find a job, that poverty leads in its grip -- inextricably to mooting.:36:43.480:36:49.440
So what are you saying? The welfare state was set up to cure what:36:49.480:36:54.048
Beveridge called the giant evil of idleness. What the welfare state is:36:54.088:36:58.428
now doing is unintentionally creating joblessness, creating the:36:58.468:37:04.320
very evil that it was designed to eradicate. John Sentamu -- John:37:04.360:37:06.708
Prescott is screwing up his face because his record in Government:37:06.748:37:10.348
was not good when it came to dealing with this. We owe it to the:37:10.388:37:13.756
poorest to give them a decent education system and the ability to:37:13.796:37:18.680
find a job. We are churning them out of schools at the age of 16...:37:18.720:37:23.612
How dare you blame the state education for the system when you:37:23.652:37:27.536
and you're not come from a private education system. You have no idea:37:27.576:37:33.128
where I came from. 7% enjoyed private education, becoming bankers,:37:33.168:37:37.552
politicians, dominating most of the decision-making. And don't say that:37:37.592:37:41.424
has been free from corruption. The bankers have created part of the:37:41.464:37:44.928
problem we have got today and you cannot put that down to state:37:44.968:37:50.364
education. Do you think some schools are a problem? Yes, we:37:50.404:37:57.176
tried to do with them. What success did you make? We built a new:37:57.216:38:00.504
schools. You and your lot knocked them down and gave us deplorable:38:00.544:38:08.048
conditions. Look at your moral righteousness. Bankers did not come:38:08.088:38:11.128
from state education and they have given us the biggest problem we:38:11.168:38:14.612
have in our society and it is the poor people that are having to:38:14.652:38:19.736
carry it, not you lot. What is your answer to the question, how can you:38:19.776:38:23.736
engage with rioters when they show no respect for society and lack the:38:23.776:38:27.708
understanding and intelligence required to be part of it? You have:38:27.748:38:32.644
to separate them into those who are obviously criminal and older. You:38:32.684:38:36.848
have to do with them fiercely. No doubt about it. But with the:38:36.888:38:40.080
younger people, we have to hope we can rehabilitate those people, give:38:40.120:38:45.004
them hope and opportunity. That is the challenge. Nobody knows the:38:45.044:38:47.644
exact formula but we had better start thinking of it or else we:38:47.684:38:50.800
will be saying to a lot of these young people, you have no role in:38:50.840:38:53.892
this society, and they will continue to be antagonistic to it:38:53.932:38:58.396
through the rest of their lives. We cannot want that. We will get more:38:58.436:39:06.680
of this. I think it is very important to separate the moment in:39:06.720:39:13.736
which people engage in a riot and are not thinking from their normal:39:13.776:39:18.644
level of intelligence and their capacity to think. I think it would:39:18.684:39:22.912
be wrong to suggest that all of the rioters were somehow lacking in:39:22.952:39:28.940
intelligence and not part of society. That is the first thing.:39:28.980:39:32.440
The second thing to understand is that, whether we like it or not,:39:32.480:39:37.144
and I appreciate that there are a lot of heated feelings around the:39:37.184:39:41.680
despair that this situation has caused, but whether we like it or:39:41.720:39:46.520
not, there are large numbers of exceptionally disenfranchised and:39:46.560:39:49.660
disengaged individuals living in the ghettos of Britain. They have:39:49.700:39:56.284
not had a voice. The whole dynamic of the interactions politically has:39:56.324:40:00.064
been dominated by people who have a voice and a media who can express:40:00.104:40:04.424
things the way they want to. These people have not had a chance to say:40:04.464:40:09.192
it. It does not justify them rioting, but they have not had a:40:09.232:40:12.848
chance to say many things and we must not dismiss them. This is an:40:12.888:40:18.720
opportunity to listen to them as well. This is all very interesting,:40:18.760:40:22.532
but the vast majority of the people who went out mooting over the last:40:22.572:40:26.688
few days were just going out there to get things for free because they:40:26.728:40:36.504
thought they could get away with it. -- looting. Yes. We had a teaching:40:36.544:40:39.940
assistant brought up before the courts. We had a student who:40:39.980:40:43.440
admitted they were stealing to pay for a trip to Africa during their:40:43.480:40:48.268
gap year. Yes, there are these problems, but let's separate that:40:48.308:40:53.320
from this mindless violence we have had over the last few days. I think:40:53.360:40:56.720
it is very interesting how this has got packaged, because you have:40:56.760:41:00.864
these people paraded in front of all of us to suggest that there is:41:00.904:41:06.080
this brand called "the criminal" and there is nothing else to this.:41:06.120:41:09.832
That would be missing an opportunity to understand some:41:09.872:41:19.832
On this occasion I disagree with you. Brian was that the riots in:41:21.436:41:26.376
1985, and there was a political background to them. This was:41:26.416:41:30.112
clearly a criminal exercise at every level. There were gang:41:30.152:41:39.736
members... I will come back to that in a second. Let me finish. I will:41:39.776:41:43.520
come back to the precipitation. It starts off, I am afraid, with a:41:43.560:41:49.504
large number of gangs in London, 200 gangs in London, I think, and:41:49.544:41:53.756
many of them in Brixton, Hackney. And that is where the organisation:41:53.796:41:59.268
came from. I don't come from public education or a private estate, as:41:59.308:42:03.408
you well know. I will tell you a story that Alan Simpson told me, a:42:03.448:42:06.656
left-wing member of the Labour Party, talking about problems in:42:06.696:42:12.112
Nottingham. He said there were estates in his constituency when:42:12.152:42:17.892
young people had �30 per day paying for drugs and the man to look up to:42:17.932:42:22.564
was the drug dealer because he had a big car and he lived well. Before:42:22.604:42:26.644
you create circumstances like that, it will be no surprise that we get:42:26.684:42:29.600
the problems we have had in London and the Midlands and the North and:42:29.640:42:36.220
the last week. Why does Sweden not have this problem, and Norway?:42:36.260:42:40.360
Because it is a more egalitarian society. Thank you. I want to bring:42:40.400:42:44.408
in a man that commented on David Davis. We have failed to recognise:42:44.448:42:48.396
that everyone is quick to hammer into them, and we are not looking:42:48.436:42:53.064
at why things started and why it escalated. You make that point:42:53.104:42:56.892
about state schools. As a council estate boy that went to a good:42:56.932:43:01.376
state school, you reach the point when you have to go into the public:43:01.416:43:05.112
school sector to progress your career. We need to look at why that:43:05.152:43:10.784
is. I had to do that. You cannot become a politician, you cannot go:43:10.824:43:15.832
on into those careers. We need to look at young kids, and provide:43:15.872:43:18.688
real characters that they can look up to because they are not people:43:18.728:43:23.240
like me in the Cabinet. There are not people like me that our MPs and:43:23.280:43:29.048
we need to look at why that is and address it. You are saying why did:43:29.088:43:36.376
it start now? I grew up in a council estate. I am well-educated.:43:36.416:43:42.800
I have got a great job. I bet you any amount of money that I have:43:42.840:43:46.564
been stopped and searched more times than David Davis, more times:43:46.604:43:53.328
than that editor. There is a real distrust within that level of:43:53.368:43:56.644
society that you just don't trust the police. You need to address:43:56.684:44:00.752
that to stop the riots. I want to hear from more members of the:44:00.792:44:04.248
audience that have had their hands up for a long time. Going back to:44:04.288:44:08.768
what the panel said about education, I work in a secondary school in:44:08.808:44:12.936
East London and I teach citizenship. I think we can all agree that the:44:12.976:44:17.016
rioters that we have seen over the past few days all lack basic:44:17.056:44:22.296
citizenship values. Why has this subject like citizenship been:44:22.336:44:25.800
planned to be removed? It is the only subject that teaches young:44:25.840:44:32.656
people about their rights and their responsibilities. Why is that?:44:32.696:44:38.316
you get a good ear from your pupils if you talk about citizenship?:44:38.356:44:41.888
majority of the young people IT to articulate with views and they care:44:41.928:44:51.844
about their future and they want to go into politics and careers. And:44:51.884:44:56.504
to judge all the young people by the behaviour of a few is not fair.:44:56.544:45:03.608
Young people can be engaged but blue -- we will not engage them:45:03.648:45:11.908
without the necessary subject. you in the 4th row? I think it is:45:11.948:45:14.880
all good that politicians are condemning everything that has been:45:14.920:45:18.520
going on, but what in reality is deterring these people from going:45:18.560:45:24.036
back to attacking our streets? I read in newspapers today that one:45:24.076:45:28.580
boy got sentenced to two days in prison. What in reality is stopping:45:28.620:45:32.888
them going out and doing all that they have done all over again?:45:32.928:45:37.832
would you like to see happen, yourself? I think this talk about:45:37.872:45:44.092
scrapping benefits, we know that it is not realistic. I don't know:45:44.132:45:48.440
either what will stop them. David Davis, what do you think?:45:48.480:45:53.548
think we start by the court being sensible about proper penalties. If:45:53.588:45:57.656
the courts do not do that, it will be a terrible signal for the rest:45:57.696:46:03.548
of society. The politicians set the sentences. The set a maximum and:46:03.588:46:10.280
the men are men and then the courts choose it. -- they set the maximum:46:10.320:46:15.296
and the minimum. They are passing these on to the Crown Court to give:46:15.336:46:20.768
a heavier sentence. That is why we have to deal with this... We will:46:20.808:46:24.828
come to parenting in a moment. is going to deter people from:46:24.868:46:29.440
rioting is the certainty that they will get caught. The reason why it:46:29.480:46:33.220
went viral was because people thought from what they saw on the:46:33.260:46:37.316
television that they could get away with it. It is not about how tough:46:37.356:46:41.424
the sentence is, that should be appropriate to the crime and the:46:41.464:46:45.160
circumstances of the individual. What will deter people is if the:46:45.200:46:50.128
police are there, arresting people at the time. And if people really:46:50.168:46:54.924
believe. Why was Oxford Street not attack? Because it is covered, end:46:54.964:47:00.688
to end, with very good CCTV. So people thought better than to go:47:00.728:47:07.704
there because they would be caught. 10 minutes away from my house there:47:07.744:47:11.984
is just as much CCTV. It is the fact that the police were told to:47:12.024:47:17.172
stand back. Oxford Street is a safe haven, the centre of the city. We:47:17.212:47:21.092
saw what happened with the students, when Kettering was going on. It:47:21.132:47:24.596
makes sense for them to go to their own homes and neighbourhoods:47:24.636:47:29.880
because they do not respect them. When the student protests on there:47:29.920:47:35.392
were attacks on shops on Oxford Circus. That does not hold water.:47:35.432:47:41.768
This lady made a good point about parenting, so let come back to it.:47:41.808:47:48.564
But you are against CCTV, have you changed your mind? No. Intrusive,:47:48.604:47:55.204
expensive and not effective. That is exactly right. Guess where those:47:55.244:48:02.032
words came from, from the man that ran CCTV in the Met Police because:48:02.072:48:06.248
there was CCTV all the way up and down Archway Road, a lot of crime,:48:06.288:48:13.280
and they were never used. Nobody has never said don't have CCTV. I:48:13.320:48:21.064
wrote the policy. Make sure it is properly controlled. They work:48:21.104:48:27.500
effectively. Exactly. Let's move on it to parents. And to tie into it,:48:27.540:48:34.188
this question, saying that many of the rioters will be parents in the:48:34.228:48:36.920
next few years and what does the panel think the next generation:48:36.960:48:43.704
will be like in the light of that? With parental rights, a lot of it:48:43.744:48:47.548
has been removed. Parents cannot discipline their own children, they:48:47.588:48:51.500
cannot correct them, they cannot ask them to stay in. They just go:48:51.540:48:57.236
out and do what they like. Why cannot they ask them to stay in?:48:57.276:49:01.344
Because children are parents these days. That is nonsense. Children:49:01.384:49:06.328
just don't listen. We have cinemas everywhere, on the buses, so unruly.:49:06.368:49:15.092
They have been given so much liberty. So many things go in, and:49:15.132:49:19.484
so children perceive they have rights. The teachers are afraid,:49:19.524:49:23.752
parents are afraid. Who will give them the right values for Society:49:23.792:49:28.624
for them to be good citizens? Where does it come from? What do you:49:28.664:49:32.548
think? We need to restore that because the children of today of:49:32.588:49:36.672
the adults of tomorrow. We saw that in the student rampages well. 20:49:36.712:49:41.248
years ago they were all children. What will happen in this:49:41.288:49:51.248
generation? I think for me, remembering parenting when things:49:51.636:49:55.548
go wrong only is not helpful. We should remember it all of the time.:49:55.588:49:59.344
Actually we have got social pressures. Controlling small:49:59.384:50:02.936
children is not that easy. I have been a parent and a foster parent:50:02.976:50:07.888
and all I will say is this. When children are growing up, when they:50:07.928:50:12.968
become teenagers, like me they seek independence from their parents. I:50:13.008:50:16.704
wanted a peer group to which I could belong. Fortunately for me:50:16.744:50:20.576
there were proper structures. At the moment, there are no proper:50:20.616:50:24.360
structures, no proper care and concerns, so what tends to happen,:50:24.400:50:32.124
if they are not safe, then unsafe structures will emerge. And gangs:50:32.164:50:37.296
developed to create that structure which is not safe. So I set up a:50:37.336:50:42.968
Youth Trust. I can tell you the story of a little man. A teenager:50:43.008:50:46.688
that move to Manchester, after his friend Damilola Taylor was shot. He:50:46.728:50:53.440
got involved in gun crime in Manchester. He was met by one of:50:53.480:50:57.248
our projects, and he is now studying for a degree in youth and:50:57.288:51:02.124
community work. Why? A structure was provided that took him away:51:02.164:51:06.576
from that difficulty. Please don't undermine the social pressure of:51:06.616:51:16.576
our society now. I just want to follow up on that and ask about the:51:17.088:51:21.236
cuts to after-school programmes, sports programmes, at and youth:51:21.276:51:27.920
clubs. How is that going to help these people get into something is:51:27.960:51:37.920
good. -- which is good? They need to reform the school system. The:51:40.712:51:44.468
Conservatives are taking city academies, one of Labour's good:51:44.508:51:49.484
ideas, and putting rocket boosters and of that. We have been talking:51:49.524:51:53.216
about guidelines, legislation and education for children. There is a:51:53.256:51:56.108
link between ideas of responsibility and what the state:51:56.148:52:01.108
can and should not do in order to create an environment for people to:52:01.148:52:05.856
take on responsibility and accepted for themselves. An interested in:52:05.896:52:11.936
asking the panel about what they think about the Government appetite:52:11.976:52:17.968
to instigate change, to make things happen. I am not talking about cuts:52:18.008:52:21.652
and increased legislation to stop people doing stuff, I am talking:52:21.692:52:25.216
about empowerment and creating an environment for people to take:52:25.256:52:29.248
responsibility for themselves. empowerment of teachers and parents,:52:29.288:52:37.624
you mean? Absolutely. What do you say to that? I think there is an:52:37.664:52:42.876
appetite for that. As has been said, if a young person thinks they will:52:42.916:52:47.156
be caught and punished, then they will not take part in the crime. If:52:47.196:52:54.080
over the course of their years from year 7 onwards, the parents do not:52:54.120:52:58.904
keep them under control, do not set rules and guidelines, and the same:52:58.944:53:01.528
happens at schools because the teachers are afraid to exercise:53:01.568:53:05.236
those powers, then they find they can break the rules and nothing:53:05.276:53:09.280
happens, then they do it again. Then they come into contact with:53:09.320:53:13.592
the law, they break the rules and nothing happens. By the time they:53:13.632:53:17.264
get to 16, actually, even if they are certain they will get caught,:53:17.304:53:24.108
they tend to commit crimes and that is a real problem. We have got a:53:24.148:53:27.624
moment for a last question, which comes back to what happened over:53:27.664:53:34.184
the last few days. A lot of people have commented on this. Under what:53:34.224:53:38.088
circumstances is vigilante action justified to defend your community:53:38.128:53:42.672
or home? We have talked about the police, we have talked about:53:42.712:53:50.516
parents and schools and the rest of it. John Prescott? There are:53:50.556:53:53.236
vigilantes because there is a breakdown of law and order and we:53:53.276:53:56.840
are not providing law and order. I find I cannot condemn people if:53:56.880:54:00.624
they stand outside their property and say you cannot come into this:54:00.664:54:06.796
church, and they take those actions. Basically, I understand that, but:54:06.836:54:11.672
the failure is all of us that have a responsibility to make sure law:54:11.712:54:15.920
and order is maintained in our streets. People that are vigilantes:54:15.960:54:19.640
do not want to do it. They do it because we are failing to provide:54:19.680:54:24.560
the proper cover on the streets. Under what circumstances do you:54:24.600:54:28.888
think vigilante action is justified? I think we should avoid:54:28.928:54:36.920
it at all costs. No. You saw an incredible amount of disorder at:54:36.960:54:42.436
street level. One set of people start, then another set joins in.:54:42.476:54:49.168
It just escalates and I don't think we should have vigilantes. So what:54:49.208:54:52.088
happens to the vulnerable in society that cannot stand up to the:54:52.128:54:57.184
thugs? What about my 92 year-old mother? She will not turn into a:54:57.224:55:00.672
vigilante. She will not stand up to these people and she has to rely on:55:00.712:55:05.464
the police and we should rely on the police. The question is in what:55:05.504:55:09.932
circumstances is vigilante action justified? In whatever:55:09.972:55:14.544
circumstances, you get people like the English Defence League, roaming:55:14.584:55:18.480
round Lewisham, purporting to be protecting society, but in fact:55:18.520:55:26.920
they are justifying their racist attacks on black people. What do:55:26.960:55:32.012
you think? The man in the yellow. But then you also get people:55:32.052:55:36.528
roaming around looting, purporting to be acting in response to the:55:36.568:55:42.668
death of Mark Duggan. I think there was a very small minority of people:55:42.708:55:45.136
on the Saturday night that were really angry about what happened:55:45.176:55:49.592
with the police shooting. I think what happened subsequently that was:55:49.632:55:53.528